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Post by Admin on Jul 6, 2020 8:12:25 GMT
Patrick
On page 21 Needham writes:
It follows from the basic theorems on limits that "ultimate equality" inherits many of the properties of ordinary equality. For example, since $V$ and $(M/\delta)$ are ultimately equal, so are $V\delta$ and $M$.
Since "$Q$ approaches $P$" excludes $Q$ coinciding with $P$, then from the above statement in the book it follows that if $BC$ and $PQ$ are ultimately equal, then so are
$\displaystyle\frac{BC}{PQ}$ and $1$.
Vasco
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Post by Patrick on Jul 11, 2020 19:13:16 GMT
Vasco
I do not see how that helps prove $BC$ and $PQ$ are ultimately equal.
I've been thinking about it and I may have an approach that will work. As Needham's figure 19 on page 295 suggests I shall think of $P$ and $Q$ as points on the circle of curvature at $P$ instead of points on the tractix. We know we can parameterize this circle with some function $c : \mathbb{R} \rightarrow \mathbb{R}^2$. Let $c(t) = P$ and $c(t + \cdot) = Q$. We know $\displaystyle{c(t + \cdot) = c(t) + c'(t)(\cdot) + c''(t) \left(\frac{(\cdot)^{2}}{2!} \right) + o(\cdot^3)}$ Even more than that since $c$ is the parametrization of a circle we know $c''(t)$ is orthogonal to $c'(t)$. We can also see that $\displaystyle{PQ = ||c(t + \cdot) - c(t)|| = ||c'(t)(\cdot) + c''(t) \left(\frac{(\cdot)^{2}}{2!} \right) + o(\cdot^3)}||$ is ultimately equal to $||c'(t) (\cdot)||$ as $\cdot$ approaches zero.
Now $PA$ is tangent to $P$. We can draw a line orthogonal to $PA$ that passes through the point $Q$. Let's call the intersection point of the line $PA$ and this orthogonal line $R$. It is clear from above that $PR$ has length $||c'(t) (\cdot)||$ and $RQ$ has length $||c''(t) \left(\frac{(\cdot)^2}{2!} \right)||$ with an error term of order $o(\cdot^{3})$.
Let's look at the resulting quadrilateral $ARQC$. The quadrilateral has opposite angles $ARQ$ and $QCA$ at right angles by construction. Even more, we can see that angle $RQC$ is equal to $\displaystyle{\frac{\pi}{2} + \cdot}$ and angle $CAR$ is equal to $\displaystyle{\frac{\pi}{2} - \cdot}$. As the angle $\displaystyle{\cdot}$ diminishes $Q$ will coalesce $P$. As this happens intuitively $ARQC$ will look more and more like a rectangle (note both $Q$, $C$, and $S$ are changing as $Q$ approaches $P$). $R$ exists on the line segment $PA$ which of course has length $R$. Similarly, $C$ exists on the line segment $QB$ which of course has the same length $R$. As $ARQC$ takes on the shape of a rectangle $RA$ and $QC$ will become closer and closer in size. Thus the excess $PR$ and $BC$ will also become closer in size. Since the length of $PR, $ is ultimately equal to the length of $BC$ and since ultimately equal is an equivalence relation we get $PQ$ is ultimately equal to $BC$.
I'm not completely satisfied with the end of my argument. I want to make sure that as $ARQC$ takes on the shape of a rectangle we get the necessary ultimate equalities. I'm trying to work through the geometry but $ARQC$ takes on an odd shape and I haven't seen any research on a quadrilateral with opposite right angles (instead of a trapezoid).
Also, I'm not sure if I can embed an image somehow. It would help to have a picture to go along with this.
Patrick
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Post by Patrick on Jul 12, 2020 21:19:43 GMT
Vasco
I have finally figured out an argument that I am satisfied with. It will be a little difficult to explain without a visual but essentially follow my above argument and form the quadrilateral $ARQC$.
Then form a line segment emitting from $Q$ in a direction parallel with $PA$ until it intersects with line segment $AC$. Call this point of intersection $D$. Now from $D$ draw a line segment parallel with $RQ$ until it intersects with $PA$. Call this point of intersection $E$. The resulting quadrilateral, $DERS$ is a rectangle Also $ADE$ and $CDQ$ are right triangles containing an angle $\cdot$. With some simple trigonometry, we can get equations for $QC$ and $RA$ and check to see that they are ultimately equal. Thus $R - QC = BC$ is ultimately equal to $R - RA = PR$. And as argued above $PR$ is ultimately equal to $PQ$ which by the transitive property gives us $BC$ is ultimately equal to $PQ$.
Patrick
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Post by Admin on Jul 13, 2020 7:52:28 GMT
Patrick
I will study this and get back to you.
Vasco
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Post by Admin on Jul 13, 2020 16:24:34 GMT
Patrick
I think it would be better not to use $R$ for the point since $R$ already means the radius of the pseudosphere.
Vasco
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Post by Patrick on Jul 13, 2020 16:39:53 GMT
Vasco
Good point! I was trying to follow $P$ and $Q$ with $R$ but that is indeed problematic. My choice of letters was rather thoughtless.
Should I rewrite the argument here?
Patrick
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Post by Admin on Jul 13, 2020 18:33:20 GMT
Patrick
I don't think you need to. Readers will be aware of it now.
Just for your information: we like to provide links to the answers to exercises rather than write them in full on the forum, but it's OK to publish answers for most "suggested exercises" in the text of the book on the forum, as they tend to be fairly straightforward.
The idea is to give users of the forum the option to try exercises for themselves, if they wish to, without reading other people's answers until after they have tried the exercise themselves.
Vasco
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Post by Patrick on Jul 13, 2020 23:30:35 GMT
Vasco
I see. That makes sense. I'll keep that in mind for next time. Thank you for bearing with me through this! It was very helpful!
Patrick
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Post by Admin on Jul 14, 2020 10:52:50 GMT
Patrick
I am studying your argument and I notice that in reply #31 above, about halfway down, you write
"(note both $Q$, $C$, and $S$ are changing as $Q$ approaches $P$)".
What is $S$ here and is it the same $S$ that you refer to in your second post (reply #32).
Also it seems to me that $Q$ is only on the circle of curvature at $P$ in the limit, otherwise we can't say that $QB=R$.
Thanks
Vasco
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Post by Patrick on Jul 14, 2020 12:00:25 GMT
Vasco
That's a mistake on my part. It should be "$Q$, $C$, and $R$".
Patrick
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Post by Admin on Jul 14, 2020 12:09:10 GMT
Patrick
What about "...$DERS$ is a rectangle..." in reply #32 though?
Also it seems to me that $Q$ is only on the circle of curvature at $P$ in the limit, otherwise we can't say that $QB=R$.
Vasco
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Post by Patrick on Jul 14, 2020 15:31:09 GMT
Vasco That is a mistake as well. It should be "$...DERQ$ is a rectangle...". Here is an illustration I drew up: ibb.co/y51qkZd (Note I replaced the letter $R$ with a letter $S$). As for the latter question, I actually worked out a long argument to convince myself it was okay to use the circle of curvature before reply #31. But as I was writing it out here I realized (partly due to laziness) that there's an easier way to see this. Let $\overline{Q}$ be a point on the circle of curvature and $\overline{B}$ be the intersection of the tangent line at $\overline{Q}$ with the y-axis. Since my argument is about proving the ultimate equality of $BC$ and $PQ$ using the point on the circle of curvature amounts to showing $QB$ is ultimately equal to $\overline{QB}$. Luckily in this case it is far easier to show. Why? Because $QB$ is a non-zero constant and is therefore not vanishing to zero. In this case, ultimate equality is equivalent to regular convergence. I.e. $\displaystyle{\overline{QB} = QB + \epsilon = R + \epsilon}$. Since $\displaystyle{\frac{\overline{QB}}{QB} = \frac{\overline{QB}}{R} = 1 + \left(\frac{\epsilon}{R} \right)}$ Regular convergence is fairly easy to show in this case. Both $Q$ and $\overline{Q}$ are converging to the same point $P$. Not only that but since both curves (the tractrix and the circle) have the same curvature at $P$ the angles of the tangents are converging (even compared to the distance from the point to $P$). Thus it is clear the two line segments are converging and thus their lengths are converging. You could formally show this but it is cumbersome and I believe this argument is sufficient. Thus whenever I refer to the length of the line segment $QB$ I can switch to the length $\overline{QB}$ without changing the ultimate equality of the terms. Patrick
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Post by mondo on Mar 4, 2023 4:02:20 GMT
I have a question to the final equation in this chapter, $k = -\frac{1}{r\tilde{r}} = - \frac{1}{R^2}$ how was it derived? In this whole section there is no mention of $k$ up until this final equation.
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Post by Admin on Mar 4, 2023 9:31:21 GMT
I have a question to the final equation in this chapter, $k = -\frac{1}{r\tilde{r}} = - \frac{1}{R^2}$ how was it derived? In this whole section there is no mention of $k$ up until this final equation. Mondo You mean "final equation of subsection 2 of section III of chapter 6" I assume, not "final equation in this chapter". The curvature $k$ is mentioned at the beginning of subsection 2 at the top of page 295 and in subsection 5 of section I of this same chapter 6, on pages 273-275. Vasco
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Post by mondo on Mar 5, 2023 5:14:51 GMT
Vasco,
ok the idea here is to show that a pseudosphere has a constant curvature not to derive it as I for a moment thought. And yes it does show that by $-\frac{1}{r\tilde{r}} = -\frac{1}{R}$ which basically means no matter how the generators of this pseudosphere vary its curvature stays the same.
Thank you
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