Gary
GaryVasco
Posts: 3,352
|
Post by Gary on Oct 28, 2016 22:24:44 GMT
|
|
|
Post by Admin on Oct 29, 2016 14:44:50 GMT
Gary
I have looked at your document and it worries me a little that the distance along $L$ from $z$ to $m$ looks to be equal to the distance along $L$ from $m$ to $w$. As I understand things, the h-distances $\mathcal{H}\{z,m\}$ and $\mathcal{H}\{m,w\}$ should be equal, not the distances along the h-line $L$, as it looks in your diagram. In the paragraph under figure 1 you do not say how you found the point $m$.
Vasco
|
|
Gary
GaryVasco
Posts: 3,352
|
Post by Gary on Oct 29, 2016 15:54:26 GMT
Gary I have looked at your document and it worries me a little that the distance along $L$ from $z$ to $m$ looks to be equal to the distance along $L$ from $m$ to $w$. As I understand things, the h-distances $\mathcal{H}\{z,m\}$ and $\mathcal{H}\{m,w\}$ should be equal, not the distances along the h-line $L$, as it looks in your diagram. In the paragraph under figure 1 you do not say how you found the point $m$. Vasco Vasco, What you say sounds correct. I was hoping you would see something to explain the little discrepancy in the translation-rotation M and the reflection-reflection M and this must be it. The problem is, we seem to have no straightforward way of measuring h-distances that are not on a vertical h-line. It would be nice if we had something like Mobius transformation for Euclidean to map and something like stereographic projection for map to h-plane. Maybe something in Figure [24] can be adapted. Point m was constructed as the point where the perpendicular bisector of zw intersects L, so the segments zm and mw are equal in the Euclidean framework. Gary
|
|
|
Post by Admin on Oct 29, 2016 16:25:27 GMT
Gary I have looked at your document and it worries me a little that the distance along $L$ from $z$ to $m$ looks to be equal to the distance along $L$ from $m$ to $w$. As I understand things, the h-distances $\mathcal{H}\{z,m\}$ and $\mathcal{H}\{m,w\}$ should be equal, not the distances along the h-line $L$, as it looks in your diagram. In the paragraph under figure 1 you do not say how you found the point $m$. Vasco Vasco, What you say sounds correct. I was hoping you would see something to explain the little discrepancy in the translation-rotation M and the reflection-reflection M and this must be it. The problem is, we seem to have no straightforward way of measuring h-distances that are not on a vertical h-line. It would be nice if we had something like Mobius transformation for Euclidean to map and something like stereographic projection for map to h-plane. Maybe something in Figure [24] can be adapted. Point m was constructed as the point where the perpendicular bisector of zw intersects L, so the segments zm and mw are equal in the Euclidean framework. Gary Gary I think the way to get over this problem is by using inversion in the circle. This results in two h-line segments which are equal in the h-plane. I would suggest another read of subsection 5, especially pages 303-305. Vasco
|
|
Gary
GaryVasco
Posts: 3,352
|
Post by Gary on Oct 29, 2016 18:02:32 GMT
Gary I have looked at your document and it worries me a little that the distance along $L$ from $z$ to $m$ looks to be equal to the distance along $L$ from $m$ to $w$. As I understand things, the h-distances $\mathcal{H}\{z,m\}$ and $\mathcal{H}\{m,w\}$ should be equal, not the distances along the h-line $L$, as it looks in your diagram. In the paragraph under figure 1 you do not say how you found the point $m$. Vasco Vasco, Supposing you know z or w, can you find the other by $\hspace{10em}\mathcal{I}_{A} = \frac{R^2}{\overline{z}-\overline{q}}+q$ ? Oh, I see that you answered this and that the answer appears in paragraph 2, p. 304. Gary
|
|
|
Post by Admin on Oct 29, 2016 20:11:23 GMT
Gary
Yes, I think that's where the answer to your problem lies.
Vasco
|
|
Gary
GaryVasco
Posts: 3,352
|
Post by Gary on Oct 30, 2016 6:18:29 GMT
Gary Yes, I think that's where the answer to your problem lies. Vasco Vasco, I have revised the document. The segments zm and mw may appear equal to the eye, but they are equal h-segments created by inversion. But the segments in Figure [32] are not easily distinguished by length either. A small error persists with four reflections, but disappears with two reflections, so perhaps there is a problem with B or reflection in B. But reflection in B uses the same function as the others, so it would have to be a problem in the dimensions of B, but I have not found it. Gary
|
|
|
Post by Admin on Oct 30, 2016 8:02:01 GMT
Gary
I have measured some of the distances in figure 1 and find that the length of $w$ seems to be more like $0.7$ rather than $0.75$, but that may be due to my ruler. However in figures 2 and 3 I do measure it as $0.75$. Worth a check.
As far as calculating $m$ is concerned, if you think of the right angled triangle $mc_Lc_A$ then the two sides at right angles are $R_A$ and $R_L$ and so, assuming $c_A$ is the origin, it is then possible to calculate the angle $\alpha$ of $m$ from $c_A$ and so $m=R_A e^{i(\pi-\alpha)}$.
Vasco
|
|
Gary
GaryVasco
Posts: 3,352
|
Post by Gary on Oct 30, 2016 20:18:09 GMT
Gary I have measured some of the distances in figure 1 and find that the length of $w$ seems to be more like $0.7$ rather than $0.75$, but that may be due to my ruler. However in figures 2 and 3 I do measure it as $0.75$. Worth a check. As far as calculating $m$ is concerned, if you think of the right angled triangle $mc_Lc_A$ then the two sides at right angles are $R_A$ and $R_L$ and so, assuming $c_A$ is the origin, it is then possible to calculate the angle $\alpha$ of $m$ from $c_A$ and so $m=R_A e^{i(\pi-\alpha)}$. Vasco Vasco, Thank you for the close attention to the figures. Your comments have given me a better understanding of figure [32] and the points that Needham is making. I measured |m| and found it to be .75 (.754 with a metric ruler; close enough). And it should be the same as the other figures, because the actual graphic objects involved are carried forward from Figure 1 to 2 and 3. Regarding your point about calculating m, yes, now I see that the cosine rule applies. It gave me the same complex value for m to four significant figures (with rounding on the last one) for both the real and imaginary parts. The eye, using a plotted point as a pointer, is more precise than I imagined! $\hspace{5em}m:-0.678801+0.734279 i$ (by inspection) $\hspace{5em}m: -0.678823+0.734302 i$ ($r_{A} e^{I (\pi - \psi)}$) ($\psi$ to avoid confusion with the angle at a) Gary
|
|
|
Post by Admin on Oct 31, 2016 0:09:49 GMT
Gary
Did you find the reason for the discrepancy you mentioned?
I don't think it's necessary to use the cosine rule as the triangle is right-angled, but it should work the same.
Vasco
|
|
Gary
GaryVasco
Posts: 3,352
|
Post by Gary on Oct 31, 2016 0:31:14 GMT
Gary Did you find the reason for the discrepancy you mentioned? I don't think it's necessary to use the cosine rule as the triangle is right-angled, but it should work the same. Vasco Vasco, I have not found the reason. If you look at figure 2, the blue and green arrows should each point at the same point as a red arrow. They are just slightly off. This problem does not persist in figure 3. I will make the source code available to anyone who has that much curiosity. In fact, I was just rewriting a sine rule when I saw your last message. It will make the MMA script easier to read. Gary
|
|
|
Post by Admin on Oct 31, 2016 6:45:40 GMT
Gary Did you find the reason for the discrepancy you mentioned? I don't think it's necessary to use the cosine rule as the triangle is right-angled, but it should work the same. Vasco Vasco, I have not found the reason. If you look at figure 2, the blue and green arrows should each point at the same point as a red arrow. They are just slightly off. This problem does not persist in figure 3. I will make the source code available to anyone who has that much curiosity. In fact, I was just rewriting a sine rule when I saw your last message. It will make the MMA script easier to read. Gary Gary I haven't thought about this very deeply, but couldn't the fact that you are using finite lengths for infinitesimals cause some inaccuracies? Vasco
|
|
Gary
GaryVasco
Posts: 3,352
|
Post by Gary on Oct 31, 2016 16:08:06 GMT
Vasco, I have not found the reason. If you look at figure 2, the blue and green arrows should each point at the same point as a red arrow. They are just slightly off. This problem does not persist in figure 3. I will make the source code available to anyone who has that much curiosity. In fact, I was just rewriting a sine rule when I saw your last message. It will make the MMA script easier to read. Gary Gary I haven't thought about this very deeply, but couldn't the fact that you are using finite lengths for infinitesimals cause some inaccuracies? Vasco Vasco, Perhaps so, but I don't see why. It might be something that I don't understand about the behavior of the infinitesimals. I set the angle of $dz$ with respect to a ray in $L$ and then rotated $dz$ to $d\tilde{z}$. When doing the four reflections, I found that I could not just invert the infinitesimal points. That is $\mathcal{I}_A(z+dz)$ does not preserve the length of the infinitesimal. We know that inversion preserves the magnitude of angles, but not the orientation, so I applied the following: a) Calculate $\mathcal{I}_A(z+dz)$ - w to get the vector b) adjust the length of the vector to its original length c) plot the new vector at w. As I write this, I am reading p. 303 regarding [22b] and thinking that I was probably wrong to normalize the lengths. Perhaps one should calculate lengths for the transformation $\mathcal{R}^{\theta}_{w} \circ \mathcal{T}^{\delta}_{L}$ (my figure 1) according to the formula in paragraph 1, p. 303 as it was applied in [22b]. Then perhaps the four reflections would coincide. This worked and removed the discrepancy together with quite a bit of unneeded programming. Gary
|
|
Gary
GaryVasco
Posts: 3,352
|
Post by Gary on Nov 2, 2016 6:04:13 GMT
Vasco,
I've been giving figure [32] some further study. On p. 312, in sentence 3, Needham says "Next apply the h-rotation $\mathcal{R}^{\theta}_{w}$, where $\theta$ is the angle from $d\tilde{z}$ to $dw$." To this point, we have only L, z, w, and m. If we are to apply the h-rotation, we need at least two lines in which to reflect $d\tilde{z}$, which has been calculated with reflections and the equations on p. 303. But the only line that we have is $L$. We are stuck. To make two reflections, we would need line A or B. The only way I can think of to make an h-rotation would be to begin with a set of concentric circles in the $\mathbb{C}$ plane and apply $F^{-1}(z)$ using $w$ and $\overline{w}$ as fixed points (p. 163). The pre-images of the intersecting h-lines would be rays intersecting at 0. We chose the angles of the rays and discard the lower half plane. This seems impractical, so we try another approach.
We draw lines A and B orthogonal to L. Now there are two lines (B and L) in which we can easily reflect $d\tilde{z}$. These h-lines are orthogonal, so reflection in them results in $dw = -d\tilde{z}$, which doesn't look like [32]. We need a non-orthogonal line through w to intersect with B. Needham says to "draw the h-line C through w making angle ($\theta/2$) with B. But $\theta$ is the very angle we are seeking to obtain the rotation $\mathcal{R}^{\theta}_{w}$! And if we did want to assign an arbitrary value to $\theta$, how would we draw the h-line C at that angle ($\theta/2$) through w? We can calculate the tangent of B from a ray to w and add $\theta/2$. It is not difficult to solve for the center of C on the horizon. Then we apply $\mathcal{I}_C(\mathcal{I}_B(w + d\tilde{z})$ to obtain $dw$. Thus, we have obtained $arg(dw/d\tilde{z})$ from the angle between B and C, over which we have full control.
This much enables the plotting of Figures 1-3. These seem to be correct. In figure 4, we test the idea that the motion of dz to dw can be written $\mathcal{R}^{\phi}_{a}$. That did not go well.
I have revised the figures somewhat and added a new figure.
Gary
|
|
|
Post by Admin on Nov 2, 2016 15:39:10 GMT
Gary
If you look at paragraph two on page 312 where Needham starts to describe the construction for [32], you will notice that he starts with $\mathcal{M}$ as a direct motion. It seems to me that if we want to actually construct something like [32], we need to have an explicit function for $\mathcal{M}$ in order to be able to calculate $w$ and $dw$. The angle $\theta$ would then emerge as part of this calculation.
Vasco
|
|