Gary
GaryVasco
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Post by Gary on May 3, 2017 22:30:33 GMT
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Post by Admin on May 13, 2017 22:20:03 GMT
Gary
I have just come up with an answer for exercise 17 on paper, and as a result I think that the hint may contain an error.
I think it should be $\nu[F(C),0]\neq 0$ not $\nu[H(C),0]\neq 0$.
Vasco
PS I have looked at your solution. For me $p$ and $p^*$ are not complex numbers and $H(-p)$ is not equal to $-H(p)$. $H$ is a mapping in the style of the stereographic mapping - from the surface of the hemisphere to the complex plane.
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Gary
GaryVasco
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Post by Gary on May 14, 2017 14:38:26 GMT
Gary I have just come up with an answer for exercise 17 on paper, and as a result I think that the hint may contain an error. I think it should be $\nu[F(C),0]\neq 0$ not $\nu[H(C),0]\neq 0$. Vasco PS I have looked at your solution. For me $p$ and $p^*$ are not complex numbers and $H(-p)$ is not equal to $-H(p)$. $H$ is a mapping in the style of the stereographic mapping - from the surface of the hemisphere to the complex plane. Vasco, I think when I wrote "This particular application of $H$ to two points $p$ and $p*$ is an instance of the mapping of $f$ to $p$ and $-p$ on the circle in exercise 16, because in this case, $p* = -p$", I forgot to preface it with something like "We can rotate the sphere so that any two opposite points lie on $\mathbb{C}$, where we can regard them as complex numbers." Right now, I don't see anything obviously wrong with it, but, I'm having misgivings, so I will spend some more time with it. I realize that $H$ is spherical to complex, but I assumed that since stereographic projection is conformal, it also has an inverse. Otherwise, what do you do with "The theorem amounts to showing that $F$ has a root somewhere on S"? You could be right to question the hint, since it seems odd to say that a function from $S$ to $\mathbb{C}$ would have a winding number, but in my solution it is also a function from $\mathbb{C}$ to itself, so it does wind on $\mathbb{C}$. And it seems no more strange than a root on $S$! I have added a second, different, answer. Gary
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Post by Admin on May 15, 2017 6:40:33 GMT
Gary
Yes but $H(-p)$ is not equal to $-H(p)$.
Also, I am not saying that $H$ is stereographic projection, just that it's a mapping from the hemisphere to the complex plane. I see the roots etc coming from the winding numbers. Winding number are defined in $H$ plane and $F$ plane. This is brief as using mobile.
Vasco
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Gary
GaryVasco
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Post by Gary on May 15, 2017 14:53:19 GMT
Gary Yes but $H(-p)$ is not equal to $-H(p)$. Also, I am not saying that $H$ is stereographic projection, just that it's a mapping from the hemisphere to the complex plane. I see the roots etc coming from the winding numbers. Winding number are defined in $H$ plane and $F$ plane. This is brief as using mobile. Vasco Vasco, I was only arguing that $H(-p) = -H(p)$ in the special case where $p$ and $-p$ are on the equator. In that case I think, whether the projection is stereographic or vertical, $H(p) = p$. Gary
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Post by Admin on May 15, 2017 15:19:36 GMT
Gary Yes but $H(-p)$ is not equal to $-H(p)$. Also, I am not saying that $H$ is stereographic projection, just that it's a mapping from the hemisphere to the complex plane. I see the roots etc coming from the winding numbers. Winding number are defined in $H$ plane and $F$ plane. This is brief as using mobile. Vasco Vasco, I was only arguing that $H(-p) = -H(p)$ in the special case where $p$ and $-p$ are on the equator. In that case I think, whether the projection is stereographic or vertical, $H(p) = p$. Gary Gary Why do you think it is the case on the equator? Why do you think the projection could be stereographic? Vasco
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Gary
GaryVasco
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Post by Gary on May 16, 2017 15:14:29 GMT
Vasco, I was only arguing that $H(-p) = -H(p)$ in the special case where $p$ and $-p$ are on the equator. In that case I think, whether the projection is stereographic or vertical, $H(p) = p$. Gary Gary Why do you think it is the case on the equator? Why do you think the projection could be stereographic? Vasco Vasco, I think the case is on the equator because the hint instructs us to take the equator as the boundary of the circle $C$ in exercise 16. It also seems like a valid method to rotate the antipodes to the equator to simplify the problem. It's a rigid movement. It would also be difficult to consider just the northern hemisphere unless the antipodal points were on the equator. This would make $H(p)$ a fixed point, a fact from which I have not drawn any further conclusions. The metaphor of the deflating balloon suggests a vertical projection so I would not give the stereographic projection further consideration, but stereographic and vertical projections satisfy the requirement that H be a continuous mapping from $S$ into the plane. Why do you think that $H(-p) = -H(p)$ is invalid? Given that H is merely continuous, I can see that it is not generally valid, but with vertical projection and antipodes on the equator, it seems valid. I've made small changes to my answer. Gary
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Post by Admin on May 16, 2017 20:33:01 GMT
Gary
As you say $H$ is merely continuous and that is all we know about it, so you cannot assume that it has any other properties.
Vasco
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Gary
GaryVasco
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Post by Gary on May 16, 2017 22:46:47 GMT
Gary As you say $H$ is merely continuous and that is all we know about it, so you cannot assume that it has any other properties. Vasco Vasco, $H$ is described as the deflation of $S$. On further consideration, I agree that we can't assume it is a vertical projection. We know that $S$ shrinks gradually, and I think we can assume uniformly, so we could deduce that points on a meridian will go to points on a ray, points on lines of latitude will go to points on concentric circles around the origin, angles between meridians and lines of latitude are preserved as angles between rays and concentric circles around the origin, and perhaps most significantly and with the most confidance, points on the equator are fixed. If antipodes are rotated to the equator prior to shrinking, they will be fixed points such that H(-p) = -H(p), so we can apply the results of ex. 16, that $\nu[H(p), 0] = odd$. Gary
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Post by Admin on May 21, 2017 14:20:33 GMT
Gary As you say $H$ is merely continuous and that is all we know about it, so you cannot assume that it has any other properties. Vasco Vasco, $H$ is described as the deflation of $S$. On further consideration, I agree that we can't assume it is a vertical projection. We know that $S$ shrinks gradually, and I think we can assume uniformly, so we could deduce that points on a meridian will go to points on a ray, points on lines of latitude will go to points on concentric circles around the origin, angles between meridians and lines of latitude are preserved as angles between rays and concentric circles around the origin, and perhaps most significantly and with the most confidance, points on the equator are fixed. If antipodes are rotated to the equator prior to shrinking, they will be fixed points such that H(-p) = -H(p), so we can apply the results of ex. 16, that $\nu[H(p), 0] = odd$. Gary Gary I don't think you can make these assumptions about the mapping $H$. The exercise asks us to consider the situation where $H$ is any continuous mapping of $S$ to the complex plane. Here is my solution.Vasco
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Gary
GaryVasco
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Post by Gary on May 22, 2017 14:26:43 GMT
Vasco, $H$ is described as the deflation of $S$. On further consideration, I agree that we can't assume it is a vertical projection. We know that $S$ shrinks gradually, and I think we can assume uniformly, so we could deduce that points on a meridian will go to points on a ray, points on lines of latitude will go to points on concentric circles around the origin, angles between meridians and lines of latitude are preserved as angles between rays and concentric circles around the origin, and perhaps most significantly and with the most confidance, points on the equator are fixed. If antipodes are rotated to the equator prior to shrinking, they will be fixed points such that H(-p) = -H(p), so we can apply the results of ex. 16, that $\nu[H(p), 0] = odd$. Gary Gary I don't think you can make these assumptions about the mapping $H$. The exercise asks us to consider the situation where $H$ is any continuous mapping of $S$ to the complex plane. Here is my solution.Vasco Vasco, I agree. Your solution looks like what Needham must have had in mind. Gary
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Post by Admin on May 22, 2017 19:06:09 GMT
Gary
I have slightly re-worded the paragraph labelled 2.
Vasco
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Gary
GaryVasco
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Post by Gary on May 22, 2017 20:51:00 GMT
Vasco,
I have rewritten my answer following your approach, but with differences and comments.
Gary
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