Gary
GaryVasco
Posts: 3,352
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Post by Gary on Jan 14, 2016 6:14:11 GMT
Vasco, For your interest, I have attached a version of 5:10 with a couple of figures. The answer is mostly derivative of yours although part (ii) was independent. I am wondering how you came by the idea for your solution to the second part of (iii), the solution for z using the equation for the centroid of the weighted points and reducing it to the centroid of the zeroes. Was it that you felt you needed another critical point? Was the inspiration purely algebraic? Did you want a solution in which the hull was the points $a_j$? Or did you have prior knowledge that the centroid of the zeroes was a critical point? Gary The original attachment has been amended in response to comments by Vasco. Attachments:nh.ch5.ex10.pdf (240.67 KB)
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Post by Admin on Jan 14, 2016 12:50:07 GMT
Gary
The equation $z=...$ at the end of my document is perhaps misleading. It does not define a new critical point of P. It is just a rearrangement of the equation a few lines above, which follows the text "So we can write the result in part (i) as". Don't forget that $m_j$ is a function of $z$ and in fact is equal to $1/|z-a_j|^2$.
Just to try and make this clear: if we start from $z=\sum m_ja_j/\sum m_j$ and rewrite this as
$z\sum m_j=\sum m_ja_j$ or $z\sum m_j-\sum m_ja_j=0$ or $\sum zm_j-\sum m_ja_j=0$ or finally $\sum m_j(z-a_j)=0$, then we have recovered the original equation. For each critical point $z$ we have a different set of values of $m_j$ and the critical point can be expressed as the centroid of the masses $m_j$ placed at the zeros of $P$.
My original train of thought in arriving at this solution was something like the following: From reading the hint and looking back at the equation for $Z$ at the top of page 103, I could see a resemblance between it and the solution to the first part of (iii), $\sum m_j(z-a_j)=0$. I then did the algebraic manipulations on it shown in my published solution to arrive at the final equation, which is formally equivalent to the one at the top of page 103, and which allows us to then go on to prove Lucas' theorem.
I hope the above has made my published solution clearer and that it answers your questions in the above post. If not please ask again.
I will also now look at your solution and give you my feedback on that.
Vasco
PS Do you think that it would be a good idea to add some clarification along the lines of the above to my published solution?
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Post by Admin on Jan 14, 2016 13:27:26 GMT
Gary
This is my second reply. Please check first reply above. I have looked at your solution. Here are some comments:
1. I think that when writing the derivative $dP(z)/dz$ using a dash, it should by convention be $P'(z)$. Writing $P(z)'$ could be misinterpreted as $P\cdot (z)'$
2. On page 2 there is a sentence near the bottom about the hint, which I don't think is relevant here. If you just have points then you assume that the mass at each point is the same. The hint is about the result 32 on page 104 being true when the masses are not all equal.
3. I think that the paragraph in the middle of your page 4 could be amended to say "...the equation in 5;" rather than (i)., and where you write "...centroid and critical point...", since these are the same thing, you could also rewrite this to avoid confusion.
4. In the same paragraph you write "There will be a different critical point for each set of $a_j$, that is for each $P(z)$". Although I agree that if we change the $a_j$ we are dealing with a different $P$ and therefore different critical points, in the proof here we are dealing with a specific $P$ with zeros $a_j$ and a corresponding set of critical points, and each critical point is the centroid of a different set of masses at the zeros of $P$. Perhaps it would be better to write: " There will be a different set of masses at the zeros $a_j$, for each critical point.
5. In your discussion of figure 1, which starts at the bottom of page 4 and continues onto page 5, you say at the top of page 5: "If the answers...the centre of mass of $\mathcal{I}_K(a_j)$." I don't think that this is correct for reasons I have detailed in my first reply and also because the centre of mass of $\mathcal{I}_K(a_j)$ must coincide with the centre of $K$, the circle which has produced the $\mathcal{I}_K(a_j)$, for what you say to be true. This is difficult to explain - I hope it makes sense.
Vasco
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Gary
GaryVasco
Posts: 3,352
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Post by Gary on Jan 14, 2016 19:15:01 GMT
Vasco,
Thank you for the detailed answer and comments. I will order my responses beginning with your first reply and working down.
Here is my reasoning: The equation in (iii) is equivalent to P'(z). By thinking of it as a centroid and solving for z, we should also have a solution to P'(z). Then you must be saying that z is not actually a solution because $m_j$ is a name for $1/|z-a_j|^2$. OK, that seems right. It did not seem quite right when I worked on it, and now I know why.
Moving down 6 lines:
I think this is the crux of my remaining puzzlement. We have shown that the solution to the equation in (i) is a critical point, and in (ii) we showed that we could find a solution p by considering the conjugates. But how do we know that "the critical point can be expressed as the centroid of the masses $m_j$ placed at the zeros of P"? Or, how do we know that $z = \frac{\sum m_j a_j}{\sum m_j}$ is a critical point? It does not seem that we have demonstrated that this z is a solution to P'(z) or that it equals p.
I think this is key, together with recognizing that $∑m_j(z-a_j) = 0$ is a form of the equation in (iii).
I agree with all points in the second reply.
The algebra is clear. It sometimes helps to know the reasons behind it.
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Post by Admin on Jan 15, 2016 9:17:32 GMT
Gary
Here are my responses to your last post.
The equation in (iii) is equivalent to $P'(z)=0$. By rewriting it in the form $z=\frac{\sum m_ja_j}{\sum m_j}$ it is still equivalent to $P'(z)=0$. It is not an equation which allows you to calculate $z$. It's a bit like saying that if $P'(z)=6z^2-2=0$ then we can rewrite it as $z=1/(3z)$: the values of $z$ which satisfy the equation $6z^2-2=0$ and the values of $z$ which satisfy $z=1/(3z)$ are the same. We have not solved for $z$ however, just stated things in a different way. However, any $z$ which satisfies either equation is a solution i.e. a critical point of $P(z)$ or, equivalently, a zero of $P'(z)$.
In part (i) we show that $P'(z)=0$ can be re-written as $1/(z-a_1)+..=0$ so that the critical points are the $n-1$ values of $z$ which satisfy this equation. In (ii) we show that if we draw a circle $K$ centred at $p$, then $z=p$ will be a critical point of $P$ if and only if we arrange things so that $p$ is the centre of mass of the inverted points $\mathcal{I}_K(a_j)$. In part (iii) we are NOT saying that $z = \frac{\sum m_j a_j}{\sum m_j}$ is a critical point, we are saying that any $z$ which satisfies this equation is a critical point of $P$. Given ANY value for $z$, say $q$, we could calculate the values of $m_j$ and then calculate the value of $\frac{\sum m_j a_j}{\sum m_j}$, but in general this would not be equal to the original value of $q$ of $z$. Only if our original choice of $q$ was a critical point of $P$ would we find that $q=\frac{\sum m_j(q)a_j}{\sum m_j(q)}$. I have written $m_j(q)$ as a reminder that $m_j$ is a function of $q$. The expression $z = \frac{\sum m_j a_j}{\sum m_j}$ is NOT a formula for calculating the critical points, but rather an equation which is satisfied if $z$ is a critical point.
Note1: Part (ii) of this exercise does not seem to contribute to the result in part (iii) - it just seems to be an interesting incidental result.
Note2: You may already know this, but solving for the roots of a general polynomial in $z$ is a non-trivial task.
Vasco
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Gary
GaryVasco
Posts: 3,352
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Post by Gary on Jan 15, 2016 19:01:06 GMT
Vasco
That helps a great deal. I’m just trying to grasp the essential relations. The critical points (solutions to P’) are also centroids of the zeroes of P, so the critical points must lie within the hull.
Gary
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Post by Admin on Jan 15, 2016 20:39:59 GMT
Vasco That helps a great deal. I’m just trying to grasp the essential relations. The critical points (solutions to P’) are also centroids of the zeroes of P, so the critical points must lie within the hull. Gary Gary I'm glad you find it helpful. I understand it as "...the centroids of the masses $m_j=1/|z-a_j|$ located at the zeros of $P$, the $a_j$" and also I think you should say "the solutions to $P'=0$". Vasco
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Gary
GaryVasco
Posts: 3,352
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Post by Gary on Jan 15, 2016 20:42:19 GMT
Agreed. The critical points (solutions to P’ = 0) are also the centroids of the masses $m_j = \frac{1}{|z-a_j|}$ located at the zeroes of P, so the critical points must lie within the hull.
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Post by Admin on Jan 15, 2016 20:56:33 GMT
Gary
Perfect! (only my opinion of course).
Vasco
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